Reader says statistics
don't support rifle ban
Editor, Times-Dispatch:
According to the FBI's Crime in the United States 2018 report (https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2018/crime-in-the-u.s.-2018/tables/table-20), there were 391 murders in Virginia in 2018. Of those, eight were committed using a rifle — rifles of all types. That is 2% of all murders committed in the state. There were almost twice as many (15) murders committed with “hands, fists, feet, etc.” and almost four times (30) as many murders committed with “knives or cutting instruments.” When you look at the facts based on the FBI statistics and not based on emotion or rhetoric, it is clear that the push to ban certain types of firearms in Virginia is nothing more than a solution in search of a problem. When you add a little "horse sense" to these proposed "commonsense" gun laws, it’s readily apparent they are just plain "nonsense."
John Madren.
Chesterfield.
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Ya' gotta just love the GUN WACKOS... They make ZERO sense...
First they tell us that more guns is what we need to make us safer??? Really???
Then they tell us that guns "saved" ________________ ( pull any number out of your a**)??? Really???
Then they say that strengthening the background check means "take all your guns away"??? Really???
Then they tell us that the 2nd Amendment has nothing to do with a "well regulated militia"??? Really???
And then they repeat the NRA mantra " if ___________________________ ([ick a sane gun control law) was in place it wouldn't have stopped ___________________ (pick any mass shooting)"~~~ Really???
And when nothing else works they SCREAM "Liberals want to take all your guns away"??? Really???
Me??? I can''t wait until we rid our nation of the loser/defeatists who are preventing our nation from even having adult conversations at the policy level on the multitude of problems that face our nation...
Bob
More handwringing and sky is falling from Kleb. The (so-called) universal background check is merely the icing on the cake. Even those who advocate it are starting to admit that the real purpose has nothing to do with stopping sales to criminals..........but is to establish a data base of LEGAL gun owners.
If any mass confiscation is attempted, kiss the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th and 8th Amendments goodbye.......and maybe the 14th in some scenarios. The unintended consequences and elevated risk to both regular citizens and public safety personnel is seldom discussed either. The only group of people who really benefit from this idiocy are criminals who are bent on hurting/killing other people or stealing their stuff. The commonwealth will be a much safer place for them -- and it is disturbing that so many people we believe to be intelligent are falling for such nonsense. Oh well, such is life.
I reply...Hysteria much...I've been hearing the gun registration BS for over 50 decades and it's been BS that whole time...
Kleb Wrote:Steve -- A repeal of the 2nd Amendment would essentially remand the issue to the states (under the 10th Amendment).....46 of which have their own provision for bearing arms/self-defense. Eradicating gun rights would then prove even more futile & could likely spark some very bloody internecine fighting.
But thank you for an honest answer, sir! 👍
I reply...Sweet Jeebus the hysteria and delusion is strong with you today...
Well, I am 100 percent correct on that. If the 2nd Amendment were merely repealed, the Tenth Amendment would totally reserve the issue to the states. Would it be pretty? No. Is that what any sane individual wants? Of course not.
Kleb,
You're not a constitutional lawyer...You're free to express your opinion but that is all it is...And...The 2nd amendment will not be revised during our lifetimes so who gives a Poop?
Just read the Constitution............as it was written. All powers not specifically delegated to the federal government (via Article I, Section 8) are reserved to the states and to the people (Amendment X).
It is not rocket science.
Kleb Wrote:Norbert -- Yes, criminalizing several hundred thousand Virginians by an act of law......IF all the gun bills were to pass. Most semi-automatic pistols and rifles would be contraband -- and possession of any magazine (rifle or pistol) holding more than ten rounds could be punished as a felony.
As proposed, there is not even a "grandfather" clause. No wonder people who might happen to own those weapons and/or accessories have their knickers in a knot. I can't blame them.
I reply: hysteria and BS...No new gun laws are even being debated yet...You don't have any idea what will ultimately come to pass and you're just running your cake hole
There is no way to know if the leftist Democrats will get what they want..........but the text of some of the bills include the aforementioned things. Again, we'll see, but they pretty much have to votes to force through whatever kind of crazy ideas they want. Deep down, many of them would LOVE to ban as many firearms as possible and eradicate concealed-carry (and probably open-carry too). If you think it will stop at bans on scary-looking rifles, there is a big sale right now on oceanfront property in Kansas.
Kleb,
When the new laws are debated and I can see what's in them I'll be happy to debate them...Until then I'll wait and see..
I guess we'll get a better idea of what is on the agenda after the new legislature convenes in January.
Kleb Wrote:Oh, I understand how democracy works........which is why we are a constitutional republic. Of course laws get changed, but actually implementing & enforcing them might prove more troublesome than we might think.
There are also potential unintended consequences that we ought bear in mind. Just sayin'....
I reply: This is simple...You all can obey the new gun laws or be arrested, tried and convicted and lose your rights to own guns...You don't like the laws being passed then win at the ballot box or whine and no one will care...
We shall have to see what happens. Those who seek the most draconian laws still cannot tell us how it will do anything to affect criminals..........nor can they point to one mass shooting that would have been prevented if they got every one of these bills to pass through the legislature. (But that is not even the REAL objective - and you darn well know it.)
The statistics are stark - and they embarrass all of those who support "assault weapons" bans and the like. IF sensible gun laws / regulations and restrictions were effective then GFZ's would be the safest places on the planet - they are not. For predators bent on murder / mayhem they are potential active shooter scenarios.
Barring a repeal of the 2nd amendment and comprehensive gun confiscation the goals of the anti-gun lobby are a pipe-dream, impossible to implement. I long for the day when they admit as much, and let voters know their true intent. Only then could we get a referendum from the American electorate as to whether or not they are ready to surrender their 2nd amendment rights. All else is just so much (trigger warning) white noise.
Surrender of our 2nd Amendment rights pretty much guarantees that the 1st, 4th, 5th and 8th Amendments will be threatened as well.
Kleb,
I've heard the lie that gun confiscation is our evil plan for 5 decades...it was a lie then and is a lie now.....
Jeff Kleb - Really? How?
Jeff, just when I thought your paranoid hysteria has hit its highest pitch you squeeze out yet a nuttier tone. Universal background checks will lead to the nullification of the other amendments?
Gosh, I hope that they at least keep the 4th or that blasted government will come at all hours to search my tool shed. Sheeesh
The (so-called) universal background check is merely the icing on the cake. Even those who advocate it are starting to admit that the real purpose has nothing to do with stopping sales to criminals..........but is to establish a data base of LEGAL gun owners.
If any mass confiscation is attempted, kiss the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th and 8th Amendments goodbye.......and maybe the 14th in some scenarios. The unintended consequences and elevated risk to both regular citizens and public safety personnel is seldom discussed either. The only group of people who really benefit from this idiocy are criminals who are bent on hurting/killing other people or stealing their stuff. The commonwealth will be a much safer place for them -- and it is disturbing that so many people we believe to be intelligent are falling for such nonsense. Oh well, such is life. :-(
Eaton,
GFZ's are a NRA talking point myth in the context that you bleat about them...The good guy with a gun is another myth that you bleat about....You and your "Normal Americans" lost....New gun laws are coming and you'll continue to spread lies and nonsense. Rinse and Repeat.
Here's your "myth":
"According to the Crime Prevention Research Center, between 1950 and 2018 97.8 percent of all mass public shootings occurred in gun-free zones. Similarly, in the 20 states that allow teachers to be armed, there have been no school shootings (as well as no accidents or injuries caused by firearms possessed by teachers)."
The parameters for this statement are as follows - mass shootings meet the traditional definition used by the FBI and GFZ's are any public area where citizens cannot carry firearms.
Further:
"First, however well-intended, gun-free zones do not work. While they might provide symbolic or emotional comfort to those who fear firearms, they have no real-world practical effect other than to encourage law-abiding armed citizens to stay away.
Mass casualty shooters have overwhelmingly elected to carry out their attacks in gun-free zones.
Relative to all of the other proposed solutions to the problem of mass public shootings, the elimination of gun-free zones would be comparatively simple and inexpensive.
Eliminating the demonstrably ineffective gun-free zones would cause no permanent or substantial damage or loss to owners of such properties."
I'll wait patiently for you to "bleat" factual rebuttals to these common sense observations.
Eaton, does that mean I have to mark you for a “No” on new firearms laws? Bummer, I had counted on you to be for them.
Rule #5 - and repeat - ad nauseam...
Stupidity and ignorance ad nauseam....Good thing we beat those Real Americans
John Madren …… statistics are not relevant for Trump and gun haters ….. neither is "horse sense", or “commonsense".
They have their own sense, which is just "leftist sense", often known as plain "nonsense". And as Obama often said ….. Period.
John Madren has wasted his breath and his ink with this letter. The gun control law horse is out of the barn in Virginia. The laws we’ll see in 2020 might not go far enough for me, or too far for him, but they are coming. Universal background checks, one-gun-per-month and red flag laws are on the horizon and we’ll be the better for them.
All fine and dandy for making gun ownership more difficult for peaceable citizens........but none of it is aimed at [pun intended] violent criminals & there doesn't seem to be any enhanced penalties in the proposed law for actually committing a violent crime with a firearm.
I guess we shall wait and see.
Jeff,
You repeat the same nonsense over and over...The data is conclusive that states with strong gun laws have fewer gun deaths...That's the end goal...Feel free to whine...
You keep lumping all "gun deaths" together -- seemingly being as obtuse as Drake The Snake. Separate suicides, self-defense shootings, police killing criminals and other justifiable homicides from MURDER. Then the picture looks quite different.
Places with the most draconian gun laws not only have the higher MURDER rates (not only with guns, either) and more overall violent crime where people don't get killed. Why do we want to make Virginia more like MD, NJ, IL, DC, etc., etc., which have MORE violent crime? That sounds kind of silly, even for you.
Jeff, your problem may be with the tenets of democratic governance. If and when more people want firearm laws changed than the people who don’t then the laws will be changed. Pure and simple. You either don’t understand this concept or you are poised against democracy. Can’t be anything else that I can see.
Oh, I understand how democracy works........which is why we are a constitutional republic. Of course laws get changed, but actually implementing & enforcing them might prove more troublesome than we might think.
There are also potential unintended consequences that we ought bear in mind. Just sayin'.......
Norbert Care to apply that philosophy to school names in Hanover?
Jim, sure. Let’s call them school number 1, and school number 2, and school number 3. Or Main Street High, or 3rd Street elementary. What could be easier?
Jeff-I find this an interesting development!
https://wtvr.com/2019/11/27/second-amendment-sanctuary-movement-hope-to-send-message-to-virginia-lawmakers/
Greta,
Yep some gun loons are going to try and break the law...Imagine they'll hang tough as they go to jail..
Gun violence takes many different forms, i.e. criminals, gangs, drugs, domestic violence, mass public shootings, etc. Can you provide some insight as to specifically each of these new laws will reduce gun violence, and which types they will reduce?
That is just it. They WON'T do anything to affect violent criminals.........except for possibly making the commonwealth a safer place for bad guys to prey on more defenseless citizens.
BS... There have been over 400 mass shootings this year alone... Your stats are junk!!! ~~~ Bob
Bob Harrison - His stats come straight from the FBI, and I doubt that they're junk. Neither he nor the page to which he links break out mass murders. The total number of murders in Virginia is about 400, so his statistics for Virginia (the only ones he quotes) are probably right (certainly not" junk!!!"). I may have missed some but I found 12 victims of mass murder in Virginia in 2019. Your figure of 400 victims is probably nationwide.
Bob Harrison - That's pretty much the response I expected from you. Faced with irrefutsable evidenvce that you're wrong, you insist that you're right and lob immature epithets. I'll bet your stats professor didn't tell you to ignore statistics that you didn't make up yourself.
Loser.
Twisted stats are NOT irrefutable facts, Professor... BTW, what institution of higher learning (?) would have ever bestowed a PhD on you,,, Your mind is terribly clogged up with self righteousness... You need to go back to college and see if you can UNLOCK it because it is evident that you can no longer take on anything but your chiseled in stone biases and prejudices... "The mind is like a parachute... It only works if it is open" and yours is locked tighter than tree bark..,. Here's some advice: Google more and comment less... You continue to make a fool of yourself here... But you know what they say about advice, don't ya', Professor??? "A wise man doesn't need it and a fool won't take it"... ~~~ Bob
Bob Harrison - The stats that you call junk!!!
(sic) are the FBI numbers of murders by all causes (about 400 in Virginia) broken down as those caused by handguns (about 300 in Virginia), rifles, shotguns, and all other causes. What's your evidence that they're wrong? I don't see any, and I treat your absurd claim that there have been 400 mass murders here charitably by assuming that you simply mistakenly thought that the national figure was the Virginia figure. You insist that you're right and the FBI is wrong, but you cite no source. Give me a source that shows that you're right and they're wrong and I'll take it seriously. Without it, you're just blowing more smoke.
I'm not going to dignify you by sharing details of my educational or work experience with you.
Oh, and as I have pointed out (as one might see if they were to actually RESEARCH this issue there are different organization which track mass shooting other than the FBI... A lot depends on how "mass shooting" is defined... I am not talking about just Viginia but nationally, BTW... ~~~~ Bob
Bob Harrison - You opened by proclaiming that the FBI reported figures for Virginia's total murders, murders by handguns, murders by rifle and murders by all other types are "junk!!!". You still haven't presented a single source that supports this, despite dancing around like a 5 year old that needs to pee.
Have a nice day.
Unlike you, my stats teacher was pretty open minded to VARIABLES that frequently thrown into studies that rig the findings... He all be preached the evils of stats in the wrong hands... I don't make stuff up, Professor Pissant... I get information from a multitude of sources... That's what I was taught to do in college... Guess your college wasn't into multiple sourcing, I donno??? BTW, what is your PhD in??? Pissantery??? Hmmmm??? Well, that would explain a lot... BTW, for extra credit: For whom was Washington, D.C. named??? LOL... ~~~ Bob
Bob Harrison - The number of murders in Virginia is a statistic - a piece of data. What your statistics Prof tried unsuccessfully to teach you was the method of using data to calculate the probabilities of hypotheses being false by a mathematical method called statistics.
How dare you write a letter that is based upon facts & common sense!! Cant be having that in the communistwealth, sir.
Kleb,
Cherry picking a single set of statistics is not logic or common sense...Logic and Common sense dictates that gun supporters work with anti gun advocates to craft laws that reduce deaths while protecting gun owners rights....Neither side would get everything they want but progress would be made.....Instead Gun supporters have long blocked any and all attempts to change the gun laws...Now the Dems have taken power and are going to change the gun laws over the wailing of folks like you....Madren's letter is more BS and whining...It matters not....New laws are coming...
Cherry picking? LOL! It is not I who is doing that.......and the "anti-gun" side does not want ANY compromise & you darn well know it.
Sure......new laws are coming. Unfortunately, many of them are a solution searching for a problem that may end up creating new problems. People in higher places than Northam are going to be watching Virginia very carefully as a bellwether to see what they can get away with or how far they can push their agenda before the people fight back.
Kicking a sleeping giant? Perhaps. Undoubtedly, criminals everywhere will be laughing at us.
😔
Fight back? Sure get your people to the polls and out vote us...Otherwise you all are just bleating...
I only hope that people "fight back" with the ballot box. Other alternatives will prove to be far less palatable.
Old people (like me) mistaking the accelerator for the brake cause more deaths than major earthquakes. You can look it up.
John Madren,
Your argument is weak and not well thought out. In the face of Sandy Hook, MSD, Aurora, Las Vegas, Dayton, New Orleans and on and on Statistics will not cary the day....An assault weapons ban is coming.
Why not have a ban on shooting people? How about making it illegal for possession of a firearm by convicted felons? Robbery ought to be illegal too.
😉
John Madren - Not many murders are committed with rifles, but a very large number are committed with firearms, mostly handguns. The same is true with gun crimes in general. Mass murders, which make up a pretty small percentage of murders, are the ones that make the news. Nearly all of those are committed with rifles.
So banning rifles based upon cosmetics will mean that someone planning to commit murder might be deterred? Meh.....we ought to be skeptical of that kind of outcome, sir.
Steve Price -- You are a rather intelligent individual and ought to be able to see through the smoke & mirrors on this. Did you ever stop to think that reduction in criminal activity is not really the true objective here? Perhaps the goal is to inhibit firearms ownership by the citizenry or to automatically criminalize more than a million citizens by legislative fiat. Just sayin'.......
Jeff Kleb - Yes, I have given that the goals of the anti-gun people are sinister rather than constructive. I've rejected that because I'm unaware of even a shred of evidence in support of it. I'd repeal the 2nd amendment if I could, and if that inhibits firearm ownership, so be it. I have no interest in automatically criminalizing anyone by legislative fiat.
You do know that repealing the 2nd amendment wouldn't make private ownership of firearms illegal, right? It wouldn't affect existing laws at all. It would simply give the governments (at all levels) the right to regulate firearms as they (the citizens) see fit.
Jeff: Ouch. Not even 7 am yet and you seem to have worked yourself into a paranoid frenzy. “Automatically criminalize more than a million people by legislative fiat?” Boyoyoboyo.
Steve -- A repeal of the 2nd Amendment would essentially remand the issue to the states (under the 10th Amendment).....46 of which have their own provision for bearing arms/self-defense. Eradicating gun rights would then prove even more futile & could likely spark some very bloody internecine fighting.
But thank you for an honest answer, sir! 👍
Norbert -- Yes, criminalizing several hundred thousand Virginians by an act of law......IF all the gun bills were to pass. Most semi-automatic pistols and rifles would be contraband -- and possession of any magazine (rifle or pistol) holding more than ten rounds could be punished as a felony.
As proposed, there is not even a "grandfather" clause. No wonder people who might happen to own those weapons and/or accessories have their knickers in a knot. I can't blame them.
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